Wealthy AF Podcast
Welcome to Wealthy AF, the ultimate podcast for ambitious individuals ready to transform their lives. Hosted by Martin Perdomo, The Elite Strategist, this show dives deep into the powerful pillars of personal growth, entrepreneurship, and building wealth.
Each week, we bring you actionable insights, inspiring interviews with industry leaders, and proven strategies to help you break free from the 9-to-5 grind, unleash your entrepreneurial potential, and create lasting financial freedom. Whether you’re scaling your business, investing for wealth, or leveling up your mindset, this podcast equips you with the tools to design the life you deserve.
Because let’s face it—being broke was never the plan. Ready to join a community of go-getters? Subscribe now and start your journey to becoming Wealthy AF today!
Wealthy AF Podcast
From Financial Struggles to $200 Million Success: A Journey of Values-Driven Leadership and Real Estate Innovation (w/ Mike Kaeding)
Discover how NorHart Inc.'s CEO, Mike Kaeding, transformed his financial struggles into a $200 million success story and how he uses this wealth to impact the world. In this episode of Wealthy AF, Mike opens up about personal values' vital role in shaping business goals, urging entrepreneurs to focus on serving others to unlock unexpected support and success. We explore his journey from managing scarcity to overseeing substantial investments and the power of taking responsibility for every challenge, even those not directly caused by oneself.
Mike also believes in the iterative process of refining one’s purpose and the importance of authenticity in aligning personal values with business ambitions. You'll gain insights into the art of values-driven decision-making and how leaders can embed these values throughout their organizations. Additionally, we touch on the habits and routines that fuel personal and professional growth, including integrating continuous learning into everyday activities, from documentaries to audiobooks, all to stay ahead in a rapidly changing world.
Finally, we dive into the realm of AI and technology's transformative potential across industries, particularly real estate. Mike discusses the integration of AI tools like ChatGPT, the economic climate's effect on real estate development, and innovative methods to tackle affordability challenges. Listen to real-life stories about building relationships with local authorities and navigating bureaucratic hurdles, demonstrating the necessity of foresight and rapport in achieving business success. Join us for an episode packed with valuable lessons and inspiration for anyone looking to make a lasting impact in their field.
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This is Wealthy AF, your ultimate guide to understand what it truly means to be Wealthy AF. All right, folks, buckle up, because today's guest is not just any guest. He's one of our top guests and an all-time favorite on this show. Back by popular demand, we have Mike Keating, the powerhouse CEO behind NorHard Inc. Now, if you've been following along, you know Mike's journey is nothing short of inspiring. His father, ed Keating, built the foundation, but Mike took that vision to another level. Make sure you go and check out that episode where he shares that story.
Speaker 1:Under his leadership, norhart has grown into a $200 million construction company, I think over 900 affordable modern housing units and counting. And it doesn't stop there. Mike's aiming high 200,000 units managed within the next decade, with 60,000 units constructed each year. Just let that sink in for a moment. But Mike's story is more than numbers. He's carrying a legacy of community and purpose, inspired by his great-grandparents who were early North Dakota settlers, building farming communities such from scratch. Today Mike is continuing that tradition, supporting local causes, homeless shelters and even setting up scholarship for trade students. But if you're ready to dive deep into the mind of a visionary who's reshaping the housing market with innovation and heart, stay tuned, mike Keating. Welcome back, brother. It's always a pleasure having you here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me. This is fun.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is. Yes, it is. It's always always fun geeking out with you about business and technology, but today I want us to talk about and focus on building wealth with purpose. Mike, and I want to start with my first question is building a sustaining business with purpose is not an easy feat. What's the biggest entrepreneurial lesson you've learned while growing a company with such deep community?
Speaker 2:roots. Hmm, you know, I think one of the important lessons with that is you have to check where your own heart is at. You know, for me, my dad died relatively young. It really reminded me how short life really is. You know, we all have about it's like 5,000 minutes or something ridiculously short here on earth and I often ask myself the question how do I want to spend the minutes I have here on earth?
Speaker 2:And for me it's about making a meaningful, positive impact in the world. You know what good is a bunch of wealth if by the time you die, they're just shoveling $100 bills in their grave, like that's meaningless, but if instead we can have some kind of lasting impact. To me, that's what's really motivating. I can care less about the dollars. The dollars are just a tool to some greater impact. And I think for you, if deep down, you're just focused on the dollars, it's hard to really have that purpose. Instead, you need to think about what is the impact, what is the legacy you want to leave here on earth let that be the north star and then figure out the dollars to how to make that work that's really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:um, here, here's my thoughts.
Speaker 1:I guess, with that, how do you go from struggling right, let's you know people struggling right, and I think I'm a big believer of one of the first things you have to solve for when you come from poverty, when you come from nothing, is you have to solve for this money thing right, because you can't have this conversation about impact when you're trying to figure out how to put food on the table, right?
Speaker 1:When you're trying to figure out how you're going to pay the mortgage or the rent next month, or the light or the car payment, it's hard to think about impact. However, what I have found is, mike, in my experience in life, is that when I've been in those situations when I didn't have money, I was struggling starting my business, struggling a commission job or not certain how I was going to pay the bills next month and I put my focus on others and I put my focus on take it away, take the focus away from my pain and put the focus on serving others Somehow the universe, god. I believe in God, believe in Jesus, god, always on our way, take care. What are your thoughts? What is your advice to those folks that have a good heart and want to impact, but don't have the resources to do it yeah, I remember myself starting out I used to.
Speaker 2:I had like a part-time job very early on and I would go to the rest like the place we all ate, and I would actually take people's leftover food and actually eat it as a way to save money. Like I know what that is like. I used to price out what the cost of every piece of food was on a price per hundred calories basis. There's not. Oatmeal and sugar are quite cheap, great way to skim by, not super healthy, but like I understand that. And now, having the perspective of going from, you know, my parents lost everything growing up. I remember, like them questioning whether or not they'd have Christmas twice Was Christmas that they were struggling to put food on the table. So I remember that. And now we're at $200 million. The reality is, the challenges of $200 million are almost bigger because the problems you face are just massive and any one of them could crush you and could crush hundreds of people around you. And so now, with the perspective of time, I actually look at those early challenges as the training ground necessary to have the skills to deal with the challenges at the bigger level. You think that more dollars means more leisure and maybe for for some people that are retired, that would be the case If you're growing a business. More dollars means more problems. Scale is hard, and so my other thought on this is that we all have a certain amount of capacity to do things in life and we can allocate some of that capacity to watching TV. We can allocate some of that capacity to going to work, to hang out with family, and I have always tried to maximize that capacity as much as I can. So for me it's never been a 40-hour week of productive capacity. So if I'm struggling early on like, yes, you have to have a job, yes, you have to pay the bills, but there is likely something more in you if you're willing to put the effort in to learning something new, just starting something on the side, to experimenting new crazy things. I remember, remember early on, I would go to garage sales and I would bring my phone Now this is back when the internet was just barely on phones and I would do eBay searches on what the value of the products that were sitting in front of me at these places, and I would buy the items that were cheap at the garage sale and then go sell them on eBay. Right. That was beyond my normal work. It was a way to make a little extra money experimenting with something new. So we all have that capacity If we're willing to step up and engage with that.
Speaker 2:And the last thing I'd say is that the people that I've seen that have had the most success are the ones that are willing to take responsibility and, frankly, take responsibility for failures that maybe you didn't cause. You know we're dealing with challenges ourselves right now, and like I look at those challenges and I tell people very openly like they're my issues, I own them. I'm the indecision maker. The buck stops with me, and so you have to gain the muscle to deal with that and to recognize that and take ownership of it, to change it. And so when you're just starting off and struggling, it's easy to put the blame on everything else, and that might be legitimate, but it's not going to help you solve the issue. My encouragement is to take as much responsibility as you can and then work to solve the issues that are in front of you.
Speaker 1:Wow, wow, man. You really hit it home with that, mike. I got so much there to unpack. So the other day and I think I shared this a couple episodes ago I was on my Instagram. Guys, if you're not following me, go ahead and follow me. The Elite Strategist on IG. Martin Perdomo. The Elite Strategist on IG. I'll plug myself in there real quick. Make sure you follow me and I put on my story I think it was on my story someone I was talking to.
Speaker 1:I was like people think, mike, that, so you and I, we know what it is to struggle, right, you scrounging for food, right, taking leftovers. Right, I've slept on trains, right, we know what that's like, so we know that side of things. Here. Guys, I want you to listen, because this is $200 million man, right. And when you go from there, people think, mike, from where you come from, where I come from, they think that money in and of itself, when you have money, it solves all your problems. And when you have status and money and you're the CEO of this big company now and you're doing all these big, beautiful buildings, class A buildings and you're doing so much impacting the community, so your life surely must be easy, mike, it surely must be easy. You're collecting all this money from all these units. Your life surely must be easy. You're the CEO making these six, multiple six figures. Your life surely must be easy. And what people don't realize is when you are there, right, and you're coming up, what people don't realize is that as you succeed and as you grow, you grow in status and money, right. That if your ability, your capacity to handle stress doesn't grow with it, you will crack because the problems are bigger. How small were those problems back then, when you were just thinking about just feeding yourself, just going to the garage sales to just, hey, I'm going to do this, check if I can make a little extra, couple extra dollars on eBay. How small were those problems, right? But to us then they were big problems. How small were the problems for me when I was sleeping in the train, figuring out I just need a place to live, I just want to rent somewhere, have a place to live and be safe. That's all I wanted. It was a small problem compared to now. I have all of these loans and all of these investors and all of these things that I'm responsible for. If something happens, it's all on me. I got all these people, all this infrastructure that I have to put the right people in the right seats to make sure that all these things all go right.
Speaker 1:What is the difference for you as a human being from who you were? Guys, pay attention to this answer, because a lot of us we wish we can sometimes. I remember I must be for myself. I remember when I had nothing in it. Hey, can I just be. I want to talk to someone that's wealthy, that's got assets, that's got all these things, so I can understand how great life is, how easy it is. You drive a nice car, you live in a nice house. It surely must be easy, right? How different are you today from the person you were when you were? You know, taking leftover foods and scrounging for food and things like that, when you had nothing?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's wildly different. I mean, there are things like the skill set you build over time that changes you, maturity and dealing with human interactions. That's important. Dealing with human interactions, that's important. But I think one of the big things is just your capacity to deal with stress and to deal with problems.
Speaker 2:It's like a muscle when you always feel a certain degree of stress. But when you're younger, less experienced, you're dealing with smaller problems. They still feel very stressful. That's because the capacity in you to deal with those problems isn't very big. Then you run up against issues For us having the city shut us down on a project when I was younger. You run into issues raising capital. You run into issues figuring out oh my gosh, my staff are struggling, and each one of those feels like it's going to knock it off your horse. But you, if you're tenacious about it, if you keep working and fighting through it, you gain little scar tissue but a lot of muscle and you're capable now of dealing with bigger, more crazy problems.
Speaker 1:when I looking back right now, I mean there's a part of me that like not a big part but a small part that looks and says I kind of miss the days I gotta tell you I I thank you for your authenticity, thank you for your honesty because, dude, I I know when you're coming from truck you miss the days when it wasn't that much pressure, right? Anyways, go on, I appreciate you being honest there.
Speaker 2:But what's interesting is you don't get to a point of missing that until you've grown in the capacity to deal with challenges, with challenges, because now that I've gone through the challenges and I've got the scar tissue and got the capacity, I can actually feel more comfortable and more relaxed when I'm dealing with those small problems, in a way that my life is a lot more stable.
Speaker 1:I love that. I want to. I want up on the original um the original topic. So what? What massive actions right Can our listeners take today to incorporate purpose into their own?
Speaker 2:entrepreneurial ventures. Yeah, I think the first thing is figure out your why. Why are you here on this earth? What do you want to do with the short time you have here? And that's your purpose that short answer to that question.
Speaker 2:For us, for me, it's become creating a better way for people to live and, ultimately, working to solve housing affordability. So that's my why. Then you can think a little bit deeper about what's your mission, what is your what? What are you actually accomplishing? For us, we're creating a better way to live by building and managing these apartments.
Speaker 2:After that, another big thing you want to start thinking about is your who, and for us, this is our values, and so understanding what are the kinds of characteristics that you live by as a person, and then you want your future organization to live by. For us, we've got a number of core values, and then there's some other things you can figure out as well. But one really important thing here is that this isn't figured out overnight, like you can't just go over some weekend and figure out magically what your purpose is. You kind of have to like draft up what that is, get out in life, get banged up a bunch and then come back, tweak, change, adjust and figure things out as you go along.
Speaker 2:You can't reordain and just re-igure out all that automatically, and the other thing I would say is you need to make sure that it's authentically. You Don't create a purpose and values and a mission that sound nice on paper but don't line up to who you are. For example, maybe you are about the money, and certainly making a bunch of money is not a flashy, beautiful purpose, but it's much better, and I've seen successful organizations that do this. They say, yeah, we're just a minute, we're about the money, we're trying to make a bunch of money here, and that's what the purpose of this organization is. What's great about that is, when you're honest and authentic, you can attract then people to you and your organization that align to who you are. But that whole system fails if you're not authentic to what you're describing. You actually want to be critic.
Speaker 1:Whose authenticity is needed? Is it from the top down? I find it that I think it's from you know, the CEO creates a vision, mission, purpose, right, and all that I find for my organization, that my business, in and of itself they have different channels of my business, one being media, the other being this right, and then my coaching, my mentoring program and my real estate program, my real estate portfolio and my real estate holdings. Is that all of that aligns with my purpose, With my purpose right, with my values, with my values, integrity, right.
Speaker 1:Some of the things that are important to me, like, for instance, this podcast, in and of itself, has three pillars, and that's personal development, entrepreneurship and investing. Now, those three pillars go deep in different ways, right. Personal development it's faith, you knowing you family, right, there's a lot of things that go underneath Entrepreneurship, right, personal development it's faith, you knowing you family right, there's a lot of things that go underneath Entrepreneurship. Right, there's different ways to entrepreneurship. And then, investing, there's different ways to invest. My choice is real estate, your choice is real estate, and construction is one of your, and then we create impact through there, right, by creating affordable housing like you, so on and so forth. Are you of the school that believes that those values trickle down from the top, or do you?
Speaker 2:see it differently. Ooh, that's a great question. If I think more deeply about the value of purpose, mission and values, there's twofold One, it's motivating, but secondly, it aligns your organization. And so if you're at the onset of creating a new organization, it really is you, because you're drafting up this thing from a little scratch and everyone you bring on you want to be aligned. You want to hire people and find people that are aligned to the direction that you're heading, so that everyone's rowing the boat in the same direction.
Speaker 2:There are other times you already have an organization, but people aren't aligned, the business isn't lived out, people are rowing in different directions and in that scenario you have to think a little bit about it. Do you want to just set it yourself, but that probably means you're moving a lot of people out. There's gonna be people that are not aligned and making a lot of adjustments to be very traumatic. Or do you believe enough in the people that you've hired that you want to bring the current people together, to align and come together along a new mission and purpose? And that's the case? You definitely need to include people, and that's the whole process, because it's changing their own minds. It's challenging.
Speaker 1:I love that you said that, because those are two different phases of business, of entrepreneurship. However, I think where I was getting more so with the question, mike, is I think that, as leaders, we make decisions based on our values. Right, like intrinsically on our values. As a CEO, you're going to make decisions based on your value system, from a high level right, from a high level right. You believe in creating affordable housing. Right, that's part of your mission, right, and create affordable housing. Now, all of a sudden, if someone comes to you or an organization comes to you say, hey, build this building for us. We're going to pay you X, y, z more, but we're going to put higher end, wealthy people in this building, does that align with you? How is that decision going to play out with you? See what I mean? Right, so it goes straight to the top. You're the CEO. Go straight to the top. That's a decision you have to make. How am I making this decision? How are you making that decision? That's what I mean.
Speaker 1:Me personally, I'm going to stay true to my values. Me personally, despite the fact that we are running a business, a profitable business, I'm of the school that believes that there's one person I have to sleep with every single night. Sir, you know who that is. It's myself. And the minute I violate my own personal values and standards is the minute I start feeling for me. I start feeling less of a man. I violated myself. I'm old enough to have done this before and that's how I know. So I refuse to for me, even as a leader. I refuse to violate my own standards and values. Where are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:oh my gosh. I could not agree more. I often say, in fact in fact I said it yesterday at an important meeting I care a lot more about living to our values than I care about my net worth, and that guides decision making love that it guides decisions that maybe I've lost millions of dollars over.
Speaker 2:But, just as you said, now I can sleep with myself at night because I feel like I did the right thing by the people who are involved. And it matters because people notice you know you gain a certain degree of loyalty from people if they see you're you're making, you're making choices that line up with those values, even if it's not your direct benefit doing that, and the the opposite is true. I've seen this with organizations where leaders vary from that a little bit and it just rates havoc. I mean, one of the greatest sins that humans see is hypocrisy.
Speaker 2:Right, it's important being honest, even if that's not a great picture of honesty. Then it is to say, one set of values that sound good but then act differently, and that's just a great way for division. But being the leader like people sense it at a super deep level in you. Sometimes not acting strongly enough for your values is also a signal that people say that's apocryphal. You're not really pushing as hard as you should and so you really you can't make it. You really have to make sure the values you're espousing are ones you truly believe, because that's the only way you're going to make it through without people saying you're a hypocrite you've seen the impact of investing in education, specifically trade students.
Speaker 1:How important is skill building and we talked, you talked a little bit about skill building and you developing more skills. Skill building, especially in industries often overlooked, like the trades, for future entrepreneurs who are looking to scale their businesses. What is your advice to them?
Speaker 2:As an entrepreneur. So there's different things. There's the soft skills the culture, the purpose, the mission and then you have the hard skills. I think there are. When you're hiring people, there's certainly you always want to make sure you're finding people that line up to your values, right? So there's like fundamental, and we always say that the hard skills are secondary. Those things can be learned. But with that set for yourself as an entrepreneur, you should be super hungry to learn as much as you possibly can.
Speaker 2:For me, I'm a little crazy about it. In fact, my wife doesn't always love it. But when I get home at night, after I spend time with the kids, put them to bed, I go and have dinner and I have optimized my dinner in a way that I start eating while I'm making my food and I have usually a documentary up on the tv so I can watch and learn something, and usually it's business related documentaries or, if I'm feeling a little adventurous, I might get into like quantum mechanics and mathematics just for the fun of it, um. But then as I go to bed every night, I put on YouTube. Like there's maybe 20 minutes or so before you fall asleep. You can feel learning something in there. So I put on lectures and things like that and I can learn something new during that time.
Speaker 2:I try to read about a book a week, so every Sunday I run 15 miles and during that run I put the book on audio right so I can listen to the book, because I'm running when you're driving like that should not be wasted time. What could you be learning and growing and approving in that space? And another thing I do. So I have my normal full-time job running this business, but I always try to have something extra, and right now it's. I'm doing some programming in the crypto space kind of with arbitrage-related stuff and some AI. But I do that because I need something to distress myself and I could go play video games or watch TV, but instead I want to use this time to do something else. That's interesting, that's productive, that's gaining me more skillset in a different area, but it's also serving that purpose of helping me de-stress.
Speaker 1:How has that, how has those habits help you and compounded over time to help you become and build this company that you have today?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's immeasurably beneficial, especially as you're running a company, you want to have a deep understanding of a lot of different areas. Now it's important to hire the best people. Get them in the right spots so that you can trust them to do that work, but you're infinitely more valuable to them. And the right spot so you can trust them to do that work, but you're infinitely more valuable to them in the organization if you understand the depths of what they're dealing with right. So, like um, I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2:We had a tax issue a while back and the tax professionals these top tier people that we've hired to solve our tax issues came back saying that, hey, we owed I don't know a couple million dollars in taxes and I said this isn't right. So what did I do? I went through and read through the IRS like raw documentation I mean thousands of pages really try to understand exactly the fundamental issues that play, got deep into it, was able to put together a little summary paper on the issue and had all my sources and explained it and sent this back to the CPAs and, hey, it ended up saving us millions of dollars because they ultimately had it wrong, but it was a obscure issue that they didn't know about. So gaining these wide skills just helps you be way better in the field that you're trying to sell in.
Speaker 1:That is wild man. I love that you did that. That is, you sat through. I mean a couple million dollars will make you do that right. You'll read the whole IRS book, but that is totally impressive. That you did that, mike. Super impressive.
Speaker 2:I'll mention that and I know it's saying this to bolster myself. I'm saying this because it gives you a sense of the depth that I've gone to learn the skill set. But like I've read the code books. I've read there's a HUD map guide that's thousands of pages long. I've read through all that. Like we have got software developers, I've learned to code. I can code alongside them, right like it's. It's just you know finance. I went through all the finance stuff I know in that present value. I can do all the calculations through the spreadsheets and stuff. Like having that level of understanding makes you way more successful yeah, it certainly does.
Speaker 1:It certainly does. I was laughing when you were saying the YouTube thing. My wife and I have a little inside joke because I do the same thing, right, every night. I put on YouTube and she kind of fights with me. She's like no, we're not watching that tonight, we're not watching that. She calls me a YouTuber because I'm constantly trying to learn something. Right, that's what she calls me. She's like you're a YouTuber. So she tries to beat me to the tv before I get to bed because she knows I'm gonna put something, just something, I'm gonna learn, right, just some documentary like some, something like that. So she teases me about it.
Speaker 1:So next question for you, my friend what are you learning about these days? I know last time we had, we've had a couple of conversations as it pertained to AI and robotics. Man, and I'm always quoting you because, man, the first conversation we had when I first had you here, you mentioned the robots that are painting, and you know there's just a lot has happened right, since last time we met in the AI space. I want to know, brother, how are you using AI today? How has it evolved? What are you learning now? What are the things that you're geeking out on now? What are the things that you're learning? What are the skills that you, as a CEO, are working on now that, you see, is a must for the future?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we talked about kind of my main tasks and then my side activity is to learn and grow. I think what's really interesting right now is in my side activities. We have been I've been developing out algorithms in the crypto world, and so crypto is nothing new, but what's really interesting is just the power that is there. You know, it took us a year to get through approvals and get all of our software and stuff in place to tap into the normal financial markets so that we can raise uh capital through an online platform that we have now. It takes a day to tap into the same horsepower of financial infrastructure in the crypto space. It is game-changing from that perspective.
Speaker 2:Another really interesting thing is the AI space. So I don't know how closely you follow the OpenAI, but they released their. Is it 01 or 04? Just last week, right, or a week ago or something Just a couple of weeks ago, yeah, so like I've really been trying to embrace it as much as I can while I'm doing my work and so like when I develop some of my coding, I actually have it open in a side window and what's interesting is it is solving problems now that are we're normally taking a few hours to really figure out. It's really incredible the quality of responses it has.
Speaker 1:It's phenomenal do you have the paid version? You use the. Obviously you probably use the paid version, okay, cool, and? And tell me, tell me, what kind of problems are is it solving for you in? And? And? Because you're a really smart guy, so I really like to know how this thing is helping you and how are you prompting it, mike, to help you solve these complex problems. That would take a guy like you a couple of hours to fix, but it's doing it for you in 30 seconds, right, I would say.
Speaker 1:Because I keep one. I keep ChatGPT open as well. I actually have started training. I hired a new virtual assistant and I literally what we're doing now is we're training them on how to become better prompters of ChatGPT and we're teaching chat. So we have actually a set of training where we're saying, okay, whenever we hire a virtual person not for our in-office staff, but a virtual person we have to give GPT these prompts and we're going to open up these tabs, so email writing, and then you're going to be, we treat you to be its coach, and then we teach it to be a um, we treat it to be its coach and like, and then we teach it to be a translator, because sometimes things get lost in language, so we're really like really pushing the limit where we're training it, but I'd like to know how you are using it, what kind of stuff are you prompting it to do? And, um, you know, how is it solving problems for you, brother?
Speaker 2:and um, you know how is it solving problems for you, brother? So there's a variety of things, um. I mean, sometimes it's fairly simple, right? For example, you might run into a coding issue and the errors that that it generates are just not helpful, and you actually search google and there's like no answers on the problem. The, the error message has nothing to do with what's actually underneath the hood and with the newest models. It's incredible because you copy them in was like no answers on the problem. The, the error message has nothing to do with what's actually underneath the hood and with the newest models. It's incredible because you copy them in and just say help me with this problem, and it gets it right. It's. It's like I don't know. I was mind blown, I saw. I was like there's no way. There's no way it's solving this, like I, I I'm gonna be struggling with this for the next day, but and it got it right now it does hallucinate, right. So there's, it's not always perfect, um, but uh, that's one simple way.
Speaker 2:Another one is so I've been studying the ai kind of deeply recently just for the fun of it and just getting into the mathematics behind ai. It's fairly complicated mathematics and you know I've gone through calculus and group theory and abstract algebra and all this stuff. So I have a deep mathematical background. But even for me the mathematics are complicated and so what's been really great is just making the chat system become a teacher. So I give it the mathematics and these complicated formulas and I say, okay, this variable here and this operation here, I don't really understand what's going on there. Can you break it down and give me what's going on underneath the hood? And it just is able to do it incredibly well and explains it all really well.
Speaker 2:You know, when I was going to school, one of the most advanced math courses I ever took was abstract algebra and it was an honors graduate level course. But anyway, people in that class were so advanced it was like people that will eventually win Nobel Prizes. But the tests in that class they were a take-home test, which sounds great, but they were a week long and that was really a timed test because of the complexity of the things involved here. But part of the issue there was that these variables were hard to unpack. What was actually going on underneath the hood? Now that I have a tool like ChatGPT, it just opens the world. It makes all of that so much easier.
Speaker 2:But really, where I see this headed is where chucky pt is no longer a window on the side, it is actively monitoring what's going on in your stream, and then for you to have a conversation with it and say, hey, look here, I'm struggling here, I'm like 35 with this problem, what do you think? And then that's all you said. And then it comes back with well, yeah, I kind of see where you're headed here. I think you should go this direction. I really see it as becoming like a co-worker. It's almost there and I think we're close to becoming as good as a co-worker by your side.
Speaker 1:Dude, that's crazy using. I didn't know it was doing that already. It was um like seeing everything it's doing on your screen, mike, like I didn't know it was doing that uh, open ai.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's doing that, but I think maybe jevita is already at that level. So I haven't gotten into that. I'm not using it that level yet, but it's. It's definitely coming soon mike, are you?
Speaker 1:are you um? Are you and then I'm going to get into what advice for for the listeners, but I'm going to be a little selfish here are you training your, your staff in your team on? Do you have formal trainings on your team for using ai, because a lot of people are not still. You know, there's a lot of people that still are not using ai. There's people that are there's probably listeners right now that are not probably not my listeners, because I thought we've had you many times on here before, but I love talking about this subject but there are people that are not um using ai. Are you training your people? Whether do you have any type of formal training at all?
Speaker 2:you know, I think right now, where ai is at is I don't know exactly how it's going to fit in, I don't know exactly the problems it's going to solve, and so for me, it's one of those things I am just working with, because I'm exploring to figure out what this even looks like, what it even means, and so when I think formal training, I think here's how I want you to use AI, here's how you're going to plug in prompts and stuff like that. No, we're not doing that today. What we are doing is we're encouraging people just to get dirty, experiment, play and try to discover how we're going to connect all this together.
Speaker 1:That's great. Are you, mike? Are you using? I know we talked. I think it was last year we talked about this. You had told me about the robotics. I can't remember the name of the company. Are you utilizing any of the technology in your real estate development part of your business, right? Are you using any of the technology yet, any of the robotics? I know we talked about it. I know you said yeah, when it comes out, you wanted to buy one and I was like, yeah, make sure you let me know because I want to buy one too. So are you using any of the technology yet? Is any of that stuff out yet?
Speaker 2:It's really interesting I've heard other people say this as well but when you think about the advancements in science right now, everyone thought that what would be solved first was the rudimentary, basic kind of jobs like painting a wall. And what is actually getting solved first is the more creative, the problem solving, the mathematical, the harder stuff, yeah, and so what we're seeing is the technology that people are doing to paint walls. It's not there yet, right, it's still struggling. And Tesla has that really cool Tesla bot, but it's still not where it needs to be to be really effective. But it's still not where it needs to be to be really effective. But what we are seeing is the softness, the more creative skills.
Speaker 2:And so right now, the architecture and engineering team they've got full 3D models of the buildings that are all broken out. You can actually do really cool visualizations where you can actually see down to every single component in the building. That is fairly new for us and where I see that heading is using more AI to actually proactively figure out. I've got a site plan now. Now, given that site plan, it's an optimization problem to figure out what the best layout, the most cost-effective design, that goes into that. And so we're getting to the point where we've got all the data and the infrastructure there, and so the next stage now is how do you take that technology, the AI and even just optimization algorithms to solve that problem, to generate these plans for us, so that we're not spending tremendous amount of time, energy, designing each building?
Speaker 1:wow, do you have architects, engineers on staff or do you third party that out?
Speaker 1:uh, we do have it on staff you have enough staff, okay, great, so are your engineers and your. I'm just trying to get a picture of this. I'm trying to wrap my brain around it. Are you guys utilizing it in that way yet, where you're saying, hey, here's a site plan to AI. We want to build da, da, da, da, da da. 150 unit apartment building is what we're allowed to do here and you command it. 150 unit apartment building is what we're allowed to do here and you command it. And are you guys, and you guys are telling it, and I'm trying to wrap my brain around it how, how you're doing this are you then telling it we want 10 apartments in each floor, 10 studios, whatever, or how do you give that command and how are you utilizing that? Can you please tell?
Speaker 2:tell me more about that so we aren't using it today, but this is kind of the cutting edge of things that we're exploring or working on. So the first step to the problem, since it's an optimization problem is you have to describe this constraints right, and so in building, that is a massive task.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is, yes, it is, yes, it is for us to already now gotten to the point where we have full models and we've got the full data in the computer of what our buildings look like. I mean, that was a pretty massive challenge, and so that really is the first stage to this. Now that we have that, the easy intro steps before you get to the more advanced things are. Hey, we've designed really optimal units. So now we've got a group of puzzle pieces that you can use, and we know a site plan has certain setbacks from different sides of the property. You have to have a certain number of parking stalls on it.
Speaker 2:Certain setbacks from different sides of the property. You have to have a certain number of parking stalls on it and what we're optimizing for is the most amount of units or maybe most amount of NOI or revenue on that property, given these Lego bricks that we have already pre-described. All right, what is the best way to fit all those Lego pieces together? And right now that's a very menial process, but there are, I mean, for any given site, even with the constraints I've listed. There are millions, I'm not exaggerating. There's millions of different ways to shape that and there's no way we have time to draw millions of different designs Of course not the team right now. They do maybe 10, 15, 20 designs, and then they just pick the best of that list. So the next stage for us is to get the computer to take those Lego bricks and these constraints and then draw out more than just 10 or 15 designs, to draw us millions of designs to pick the optimal one.
Speaker 1:So are you actually using this right now, at this level? Are you literally doing it, or is this the way that you plan on using it, mike?
Speaker 2:So this is the cutting edge. This is literally what they're working on today. That's amazing. They are not using a computer to do that today. They just got past having all the data in the computer. But that's the next stage.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, mike. That is truly, truly amazing. I want to get back to a little bit of the economic climate with you. I want to talk a little bit more business. We went into a little bit of AI. I want to talk a little bit more of the economic climate.
Speaker 1:Earlier, you mentioned you were messing around with the crypto, cryptocurrency and you were creating algorithms for cryptocurrency. You are just a brilliant guy and tell me, are you utilizing crypto in any way to if there is and I don't know this, I'm just curious about this To raise capital for real estate? I know that a couple of years ago and maybe you and I talked about this a little bit there was a few transactions done in our base. A couple of small multis, I think, were purchased and a couple of.
Speaker 1:I read in my financial newsletter that I get. There was a couple of transactions done with cryptocurrency. I know you're dabbling in that and you're playing with the algorithms of that. Like you said, crypto is not new years right, with interest rates being so high and the cost of labor being so high and the cost of material being so high is what we're all struggling with right now. Are you using that at all crypto to solve for some of those issues and how are you navigating those other issues? So I know that's a loaded question as it pertains to cost as a developer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, there's a lot in that question. Yeah, there is. So in the crypto space, the big benefit that crypto brought is democracy right, anyone can tap into it tomorrow, and then it provides a high degree of certainty and trust for the people that use the system, because you have these smart contracts that are written that can't be broken there's criminals or whatever but for the most part, it functions incredibly well and so, as long as you're within that ecosystem, you can have access to billions of dollars. Right, you can do flash loans and really cool stuff in that ecosystem.
Speaker 2:The challenge is, as soon as you break out of that ecosystem, the crypto space now has a chain broken in that degree of trust, and how do those investors know that they're getting their money back eventually somehow in the future and through that?
Speaker 2:That really is the fundamental problem in connecting it into physical real estate is that it doesn't solve that trust problem. So the investor the average investor is doesn't care if it's in crypto, not in crypto. They're invested in some real estate project with some kind of future expected returns, and so that's the challenge there, and I don't know if anyone's solved that incredibly well. Yet, without solving that, crypto just becomes I don't know, maybe a little bit more fluid stock market for the assets that you're investing in, because you can more easily trade them. But that's the challenge and I don't see a great solution today. In the wider capital raising space, it's been challenging, right, the interest rates rose and, as a result, if you look at the graphs like the number of new multifamily starts, number of new buildings starting construction has fallen off a cliff like 70% or 80%. It's just gone way, way down.
Speaker 1:By the way, month over month starts in the south west. I just reported this on my market update. Real estate market update just yesterday Month over month for multifamily is down 16.7% Month over month. Multifamily is down 16.7% Month over month, just one month. You're probably talking about the last two years since interest rates started going up 70%, 80%. Go ahead, my friend. I just wanted to add that to your point of the starts are just way down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that goes to speak about how difficult it is right now. Because the cost of capital is so high, most projects don't make financial sense and on top of that, investors are a little bit more reserved and hesitant than they were before. They really want to make sure they're ducks in a row. Banks, for example, we were getting typically 75% LTV, so if a project is worth $100 million, banks were giving us $75 million to build the building. Today they're down to 55% to 65% LTV Brutal Right. And so now you're trying to bring in preferred equity to kind of fill part of that gap.
Speaker 2:But that preferred equity is maybe 16% and the academics just fall apart. And I think that's just where we're at in the cycle, because we are having low number of new. Well, today, because we had so many starts before, there's still a lot of buildings coming online, so rental rates have not changed significantly. So that hasn't helped the economics. But I expect over the next few years, as the lack of new construction starts to catch up to us, as long as the demand stays there, we'll likely see a rise in the rental rates to cover that gap, or the capital markets will get better, or we'll just stay not building very much for many years okay, so there's so much to unpack there, my friend, all right.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna give you a scenario. Yeah, I got elected president of the United States. I pick up the phone and I call Mike Keating. Mike, you're going to be my economic advisor. You're going to, you're going to. I want you to head the finance department, the HUD department, for all this stuff. We have a problem in our country that I need you to solve. I need you to solve this affordability issue that we're having. I need you to solve. I need you to solve this affordability issue that we're having. I need you to solve. We've had this massive wave of immigration. We have all of these new people. We have to house these people. We can't have people living homeless in our country. But our country cannot afford. Our Americans cannot afford these high rates. Right to buy these homes because of their income and developers cannot build new because it doesn't. Just the mathematics make no sense. How are you solving it? How are you solving this issue? To get more housing online what are you proposing? Pursuing housing online what are you?
Speaker 2:proposing. You know this is going to sound a little bit crazy, but I'm a little bit of a free market guy. I don't think there's a lot the government can or should do, necessarily.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll give you some. What policies or what can we? Let me rephrase the question, then, because now I know that you're more of a free market guy, so I know you're more of a free market guy, Mike. How can we indirectly influence? So the free market? I'm more of a capitalist in my heart, so I believe the markets is going to take care and it's going to weed out the weak right. What policies can we put in place to encourage and empower developers and to let the markets be free and do what we want it to do? So we want to indirectly influence, because the government sucks at doing anything. They're terrible at taking care of business. They're just wasteful. They're not like us, right, Entrepreneurs. We count every penny, we're dotting everything right. They don't do that, they just waste. Go ahead. What? How are you advising? How are you solving? What policies are we putting into place? How are we going to fix this?
Speaker 2:How are we going to make these markets work? Yeah, I'll give you some in just a second. I'm going to share with you one that I wouldn't do, that probably a lot of people think of, and that is that, in order to make housing more affordable, governments often step in and give money to developers in exchange for capping their rents at lower rates, and I mean that does technically work for the properties that you have limited those rates in. The problem is the problem is so much bigger than we can deal with right. The housing real estate is a huge percentage of the overall economy. There's not enough money in the rest of the economy to tax, to put into housing. To solve this problem there's got to be a different way, and for me I really believe the way is solving the cost of constructing new housing. When you look at that, over the past 60 years other industries like manufacturing have improved labor productivity by 760%, but construction has done nothing. It's been staying and just growing at 10% over the past 60 years. So that is fundamentally what we have to improve and the way you improve that is by applying these technologies and really simple ideas from the world of manufacturing into the world of construction. But there are roadblocks in the world of real estate and construction that are fairly unique to that, that can be pulled back to make it easier.
Speaker 2:I'll give you one specific example, and that is the way that new projects get approved. They have to go through planning commission and city council and city council does a vote yes, do we want this or no? We don't want this. The problem is that a lot of times these are emotional. Just what do we feel like in the moment kinds of decisions? Give you one example we went to one city, went to city staff. They love the idea. They wanted an apartment building. This location was great. Everyone was on board, started spending a bunch of money designing the whole plans. We got the island commission. Everyone was great. We were happy we're moving forward. It was approved, we're great. Went to city council and we thought people were on board. But once we got to city council, a few of the city council members thought, well, I don't know, we just don't want more departments in our city. We've had. We're gonna say no, there was no more reason than that. And here we'd spent I don't know half a million dollars on getting this to the stage and in a year's worth of work and now it's just totally shut down.
Speaker 2:So there are places like um I think japan is this way where the rules on whether or not you can build are like simple, predefined rules that you either make or you don't make, and then, if you meet those requirements, you're allowed to build. There's no emotion or human element behind it. But what has happened? We had that kind of system here, but what has happened over the last, you know, decades or century has been that those rules have been made so restrictive that no development can get approved. I mean, one simple example is limiting all buildings to two stories. You know, no reasonable apartment building is typically two stories, it's usually four and that what that requires you is to go down a different approval process. That puts you completely again at the whim of the city council. The city council likes it because they have the power then to just say what they want to do with their community. So it's. That's an example of how things just come up the system and make a difference up the belt so what would you do, would you say?
Speaker 1:would you, would you say let's pass a federal, you know, let's sign into us, let's sign this into executive order, where we, and hopefully both of our presidential candidates, are listening to us? This?
Speaker 1:is a really smart guy here giving some advice, but would you say let's pass a mandate that it's streamlined this way. What would your advice be? To solve the issue and then tell me what impact would that have? Really, what impact would that have? Because you said there's two issues. There's the cost we have to figure out the costs and then we have to figure out the issue with the committees. By the way, I know what that's like.
Speaker 1:I've been on multiple boards and I know you have, I think you mentioned in the previous conversation and there's a lot of political stuff and these boards and these community and if and if and if, if, if this one pissed me off or if this one made me mad and this one voted on something I didn't like last week or last month, now they're gun ho on this now. Now I'm gonna not support them on this one. It just becomes. It's not fun and a lot of that happens, mike. A lot of that happens on these councils. So I know some of the borough presidents in some of the communities I live.
Speaker 1:Actually, one of the borough presidents is a friend of mine, close friend of mine, and I know all the stuff that happens here when amongst them and him and I have sat on boards together, nonprofit boards together, and it's not fun. A lot of times it's not fun. It's ego and emotions, this and that, and then you, the developer, comes and you have nothing to do with it. It's just this one is mad at that one, or these two ganged up on that one, and now you're going to get you're out half a million dollars. So what's your proposal to fix both of those issues?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've lived that so many times. So how to solve it? So one of the issues here is that the state's rights issue. So this is definitely in the domain of the states. The federal government can't necessarily just sign some sweeping law to put something in place. You'd likely get struck down by the Supreme Court. So really, you want state legislators to decide a set of rules.
Speaker 2:When somebody wants to build an apartment building, here is a reasonable setback, here is a reasonable height restriction, here are some reasonable requirements for that approval. If they meet within this reasonable box, then, mr Mississippi, this building is automatically approved. You don't have decision there. And then you go back to the system of variances and if you okay, if you break, you need to make sure those initial rules are broad enough so you're not always breaking them. But then if you need to break one of those rules, then you can go to city council to get approval to bend or break one of those rules. I believe that's how Japan operates and what it does then is it takes the decision-making out of being an emotional thing for the angry neighbors and the city council that has to deal with that. It makes it a rule-based system that was decided by experts, really being thoughtful up front.
Speaker 1:I freaking love that. That's a great solution, solution. I'm sure it's not a new solution. You said they're doing it in japan. Uh, that's an amazing solution. So, if you guys are listening, go talk to your state legislators, um, and let's get this stuff. If you're a developer or real estate investor and you've experienced these pains, I recently experienced this pain in the city, in a city I was working in doing a big redevelopment, and it's extremely political, extremely painful, and it's almost like if you're not in the in crowd I don't know if this is has this been your experience? It's almost like if you're not in the in crowd and you're not in the know-whos, like I literally had to get the mayor involved. It was just. It was just not good. It was not a good good experience. I had to get the mayor involved and you know, guys, absolutely absolutely the relay.
Speaker 2:You know this is a lesson I learned very, very early on relationships matter. It's really doing this about we, about getting stuff approved. I didn't do that very well on my first project. I did on myself and I had angered some of the other city council members. They were charging me a fee that, according to state law, plainly said, was not allowed to be charged, and so I said okay, please just approve this project. We disagree on this fee. Let's take that fee discussion to court. There's actually something in the Minnesota State law that allows me to do that. That is. The proper protocol is for them to approve the product and then to go through this process to see if the fee is legitimate or not.
Speaker 2:But I think they knew deep down they were wrong on it and they have more leverage in stopping me to do the project. They said, hey, you've got to sign away your rights. Louis is not doing this project. Anyway, I ended up signing away my rights and, having fought that a little bit, I actually lost a lot of goodwill with the city. And so then, as we're building, they shut me down twice. Right, and part of that was my own fault. There were some issues on site, but still part of it I think a big part of it was the fact that we just struggled with that relationship, yeah, and it just made it hard to do anything better yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um, I hope it turned out well for you when you finished the project yeah, it's still very, very uh successful project for us yeah, that's great. Great to hear. Um, I'm kind of on the tail end of my lessons with mine. We're working on setting the vacancies now. But, yeah, we know what that. I definitely know what that's like, mike, and it's a struggle and, like you said, relationships matter.
Speaker 2:Who you know, and talking about cost, we actually have a full-time person. It's all.
Speaker 1:Their job is to build relationships instead of you guys heard that like literally, you got someone full-time and like like that's how important it is, like I agree, listen, I. So when I went to do this project now 40 I'm 46 years old, mike, so you, you live enough, you have enough experience, you can to, you know, I, we have the advantage of time, right, we have the advantage of time. So you could look at things and say, hey, I'm looking at this environment and I think that this environment and you gather information. I got to be very strategic in all of my moves, very, very strategic in everything I do here. So I got to think five, 10, 15 steps ahead. And the very first thing I did and it was just intuition, mike, this was intuition, the very first thing I did I bought this building and I had to re. It was a condemned and it was a it's a 12 unit apartment building and I was going to redevelop. I redeveloped the whole thing. I put, I did everything new, right and um the.
Speaker 1:So the first thing I did, while I was waiting for architects and drawings and all that engineering plans and all that was I called a meeting with the mayor and and I remember my son, my son 21 at the time. So I took my son with me because I wanted him to learn, I wanted him to take over the business one day. And I said and he was like, well, that was the point of this. I said, just trust me, let's just go in this meeting and let's introduce ourselves, let's let her know what our vision is and how we plan on partnering up with the mayor and bringing value to her city and putting a condemned ugly building back on her tax roll. She needs to know who we are. So we did, we did that. We got in this meeting and we did that right, and that was it. We just got to know each other, got our a phone number. She gave me her cell phone number. We've we text every once in a while and that was it. And it was just intuition, like just it's just foresight.
Speaker 1:My project got stopped multiple times. I fired a contractor uh, he sued me. We're still kind of litigating that. I'm sure you've been through that. I'm sure you've had your share of that at your size, right. So you know, going through all that nonsense and project got complicated, the city was extremely difficult to deal with and at the very, very, very end, at the very end city was giving me a past inspection, everything. Final inspection, citi was giving me a hard time to give me my CFO.
Speaker 1:So we go, and we go in the morning. They're like, no, we're waiting for the fire chief to send us an email to say he inspected. I gave the guy the green card, like hey, look the fire chief, look, here it is. It's signed Like here's a physical card. He gave us a green pass sticker, right, no, no, no, I need it in writing. You could have made that up Like I was going to fine, duplicate that, right, whatever. So they come back at two. We emailed the fire chief. We waited for the fire chief to email us back, like, okay, we go back at two and I run into the mayor outside.
Speaker 1:She's talking to one of her constituents or something, and she's like, hey, martin, and we start talking. So she starts to ask me and I say, hey, I'm having an issue with your people here. And just like that, mike, we went in there and just like that, within half hour I had my CFO. So you know, she told them whatever, call this one, email that one. But they saw me go in there with her and she told them call, do whatever she told them, whatever, and within 30 minutes we got the call, we left, we went back to the building. Five minutes after we were in the building, hey, your CFO is ready and signed, come get it. But had we not known the mayor, had we not built that relationship with the mayor a year and five months prior, right, we would not have gotten.
Speaker 1:I believe we got the result we got because of her. I don't believe that I that I was going to get those results, the result I got, as it pertains to the cfo, that quickly, on my own. I'm not that good, I'm not that special, right, I don't have that much power. Um, so, to your point, relationships matter and who you know, it was just intuition. What I can tell you was just intuition. It was just trusting God's grace, like, hey, god's telling me to do this, I'm just going to do this. It's that voice, right? I just believe that voice is God's grace speaking to me, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:So what's really powerful about what you're talking about? Is it really? Fundamentally it's about trust. You know, for us humans, like everything initially is there's like a wall up. We don't trust, we don't believe what some stranger is telling us and, um, the not having that trust just gums up the whole work, just slows a bunch of things down. But if you invest a little bit in building that relationship and putting deposits in that trust, then when you have issues there is a speed to trust. You can solve those issues a lot faster and a lot more emulatively than you can if you didn't do that.
Speaker 1:Love it, brother. Thank you so much, mike. You know I'm going to have you back on, probably early next year after the election and all that. If folks wanted to get together with you before we do that, what is the one action piece you would tell an entrepreneur that's starting out, whatever business venture they're in, maybe they're starting out or they're in their business or growing their business and they want to improve in all areas. Right, we talked about a lot of different things in this past hour here. What's the one thing you would advise them, the one habit that you would say hey, this thing will help you improve dramatically your business, personal, all areas of your life, or areas of your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say the number one thing is to have mastery over that voice in your head that doubts yourself. And what I mean by that is, whenever you start off something new, you're terrible at it and that's okay, right, like as kids. When we start something new, we can't walk, we can't talk, we can't ride a bike. We're like, we're okay with that. But something happens in us as we grow older and we start to think that we need to be good at whatever we do. Or if we're not, there's this inner dialogue that says I'm a failure, I'm struggling, I can't get through this, and everyone feels that I feel it. The important thing to remember is that is normal. The way you get through it is just by getting out there, skinning your knees, failing a bunch, trying again, failing some more, trying again, failing again, but eventually through that process. That's how you gain mastery over what you're trying to accomplish. So don't let that inner voice stop you.
Speaker 1:Great counsel. If folks wanted to connect with you, learn more from you, maybe invest with you, mike, where can they find you? How do they connect with you? Where are you online? Where can they learn from you? Where can they continue to follow you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the best place is simply to go to our website, norhartcom, that's N-O-R-H-A-R-Tcom, and there you can see ways to invest, you can see ways on our social media, and then all of my social media accounts are just my name, mike.
Speaker 1:Mike. Thank you, sir, really really appreciate you. As always, this is your home, mike. Thank you, sir, really really appreciate you. As always, this is your home. It's a pleasure to have you here and I look forward having you back here next year as the economic climate starts to change. I'd like to get your your impact because, man, I really am hoping that these interest rates drop and or whatever we, we, you know, whenever you're listening to this podcast, interest rates are high Still. We had a 50 basis points drop, but they're still pretty high and, um, I'd love to have you back and see what impact that's having in your world as a developer.
Speaker 2:I love it. I'd love to be back.
Speaker 1:Thank you, brother.
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